'There's a book you have to read, we're passing it around at our office and everyone's signing the back if they recommend it.' That was my introduction to
DW: Did you hear back from Eli?
KS: Within four days, with a copy of his newly revised book. And then within about a week or so I heard from Bob Fox, who was presi- dent of the Goldratt Institute at that time, and they offered to send me to Jonah school on scholarship. So I went through the course. Later I went through a facilitator program on how to become a trainer of Jonah processes. And then I went back and taught a pilot course to kids. By the end of the year my kids were using the thinking pro- cesses, which they learned brilliantly. They were the most Socratic learners and teachers of other kids that you ever saw. It was pretty convincing evidence to me that this stuff works with kids, and it launched me into the role I have now.
DW: Was it a course about TOC or a course that used TOC methods to teach other content?
KS: It was a class on world cultures-basically a class on perspectives, which of course this is so aligned with. We used methods derived from TOC to advance the curriculum. Later I taught a critical think- ing skills course that was pure TOC. In that course I was teaching cause and effect as a skill. We used concepts like the conflict cloud to analyze conflicts in real-life situations.
DW: What evidence do you have that the kids were absorbing the concepts?
KS: Here's an example. One day I read to the students the section about the hike from
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weakest link?' Stuff like that. It wasn't a test. I just wanted to know if they were getting it. That night I looked at their answers and I real- ized maybe half of them got it and half of them didn't. So I went back the next day and I asked them again, 'What determines the strength of the chain?' I called on one boy-let's say his name was Mike-who I knew was struggling. He was rambling on and on. He did not get it. And I did not know what to ask Mike to get the answer out of him. So then I looked at my other students. And I knew if I called on John, for example, who did get it, he would just tell Mike the answer, and that's not what I wanted. So I said, 'No one can give Mike the answer. You can ask Mike a question to help him think of the answer.' And that is when one of my other students raised her hand. She said, 'Remem- ber when we were doing the cloud on teach fast, teach slow? The problem of making sure everyone understands but the fast ones don't get bored?' That's when I saw what was happening. As the other students began asking Mike questions designed to draw the answer out of him, I could see that everyone was engaged. It was a wonderful example of cooperative learning. Because everyone had to think. Even if they already knew the answer, they were thinking hard about how to guide others to the answer.
DW: How do you introduce TOC to schools where it has never been taught before?
KS: We usually start with teaching TOC as a generic process, then figure out how to apply it to a specific curriculum. Initially it was easier to get it in through the counseling element of the school-the behavior application. That seemed to be the most obvious way in.
DW: How do counselors use TOC?
KS: Let's say the child is sent in to the guidance office with a behav- ioral problem. The counselor who's been trained in TOC will use tools like the negative and positive branch: 'What did you do? Why were you sent here?' And then they go into the cause and effect con- sequences of the behavior, and how that leads to negatives for the student. The student will say, 'If I do this, I get in trouble, I get grounded, I get sent up here, my parents get called.' It's almost pre- dictable, this branch. Then the counselor asks, 'Okay, what would happen if you didn't do these things?' Then the student writes the
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other branch, the positive one. Then the counselor asks, 'Okay, which would you prefer? It's up to you.'
One of the first teachers that was using this in a classroom in Califor- nia was working with at-risk students. They were at risk of failing academically and behaviorally. She was teaching the process outright, as a skill. And she had her students do cause and effect branches. One boy did it on, 'I'm going to steal a car, go on a joy ride.' She went to help him, because he couldn't get the branch started. 'She said, 'What's the problem?' He said, 'This is the first time I've ever thought of something ahead of time.' In the end he had to go to the driver education teacher and get some information to finish the branch, which is great. He found out what would happen to him if he got caught, because he didn't really know. How do you quantify the re- sults of something like that?
DW: You've since developed other applications?
KS: Yes, and they're interconnected. Because behavior changes atti- tudes. Or maybe I should say that attitudes impact behavior. If a stu- dent can make a more responsible decision, and he gets a favorable impact, his attitude toward the teacher and what he's doing in school changes. That's bound to have some impact on his learning. But ad- ditionally, we have, in the past two years, really worked on how to deliver the TOC learning process through curriculum content. Or, again, maybe it's the other way around: How to teach content using the TOC processes. Because teachers do not want to interrupt class to teach a life skill. They have to teach the curriculum.
DW: I understand you've introduced TOC to young people in prison settings.
KS: I went into a juvenile jail in California about five years ago. I spoke to a new group of juvenile offenders, this was their first day. They were all gang members. Later the teacher who invited me told me he had been very worried because I was female and most of them had been abused by their moms. He was afraid they would back me into a corner and be quite rude. There I stood there in a polka dot dress, from Niceville, Florida, looking like the person who had put them in jail. I'm sure I didn't look very empathetic. But I tried to get
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them to tell me what they wanted out of life. They said things like. 'We just want to get out of here, lady.' I said, 'Do you think that's enough to keep you out of here?'
Finally, one boy said to me, 'I just want a better life for my kids.' These were 16 to 19-year-old old black and Hispanic males. I looked at this guy and I said, 'I'm sorry I don't understand, what do you mean? You have kids?' He said, 'Yes, I have a two-year-old and a baby.'
Anyway we had this goal on this rickety old chalkboard, 'A better life.' I said, 'Okay, what is preventing you from having a better life?' They said, 'Jealous people.' I turned around and I said again, 'I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by jealous.' Because I'm thinking to myself, and not facetiously, 'who could be jealous of them, they're in jail?' And that's when they said, 'Oh, but if you go back and try to get out of the gang they'll be jealous, they don't want you to leave the gang, you can't leave,' and all this.
They also mentioned prejudice as an obstacle. And as I'm making this list I am thinking, 'I am in over my head.' There was nothing I could think of that would overcome the obstacles these kids were facing. But I didn't need to worry about it. Because they had the answer. They went down the list and they added more obstacles like, 'my past,' and 'criticism,' and about halfway through they gave me something brilliant: 'Me. Myself. I have to change my- self. Right away.'
I later received letters from some of those kids. One of them said, 'Before we had that talk, even making it to 21 was hard to see in my future. But you gave me hope.' Now I ask you, did I give him the hope? No! It came from him! But he wrote, 'You gave me hope that I can make it if I just follow those steps.' That last part is so impor- tant. This is not just wishful thinking. It's giving somebody a process they can use, so that when the person who's giving them the attaboys isn't there, they have the know-why, not just the know-how to keep going.
DW: Does TOC have the same relevance to kids who don't have such severe obstacles to overcome?
