?It was on my orders, Vincent.?
?Ma?am??
?I phoned Pillay direct. Groenewald was in our records.?
Radebe looked at her, frowning still.
?I?m sorry, Vincent. I ought to have told you.?
?Ma?am, that?s not it? .?
?What is it??
?I thought I knew all our agents.?
She kept eye contact with him, smiling reassuringly. ?Pillay doesn'?t work full-time for us, Vincent. I don'?t want to interfere with your people.?
The frown lifted.
?Ma?am, there?s something else? .? His voice was soft, as if he didn?'t want the others to hear.
?Talk to me.?
?Mpayipheli, ma?am. We are treating him like a criminal.?
?He
It seemed that he wanted to contradict her but thought better of it.
?He disarmed two of our agents, refusing a legal request to hand over state property. He stole a motorcycle.?
Radebe?s gaze was far-off. He nodded, but she did not feel that he agreed. He turned around. She watched him thoughtfully until he sat down.
Transcript of interview by V Pillay with Mr. Gerhardus Johannes Groenewald, 23 October, 21:18, 807 Dallas Flats, De Kock Street, Sunnyside, Pretoria
P: You were on the integration team with Johnny Kleintjes?
G: I was second in command.
P: Did you have access to the same material?
G: Yes.
P: Did you know Mr. Kleintjes had made backups of certain sensitive records?
G: Yes.
P: Tell me about it, please.
G: It?s ten years ago.
P: I know, Mr. Groenewald.
G: Most of that data is useless now. The people ? Things have changed.
P: We need to know.
G: Those were strange times. It was ? To suddenly see what the enemy had on you, to show them what we had, it was surreal. Your enemy was no longer your enemy. After all those years. To work with them, it was difficult. For everyone. Both sides.
P: You worked for the National Party government, before 1992?
G: Yes.
P: Proceed, Mr. Groenewald.
G: Some people on the team couldn'?t handle it. It was conditioning, hammered into you for so many years, the secretiveness, the idea of us against them. Stuff disappeared.
P: What sort of stuff?
G: Operational records. The kind of stuff individuals didn?'t want counting against them. When Johnny Kleintjes realized that people were deleting stuff, he began to make backups. We worked together, as fast as we could. And when one of the backup tapes disappeared, he started taking work home.
P: Did you know what material he took home?
G: He never hid anything from me.
P: What was it?
G: There were the X-lists of the politicians, judges, and intelligence people. You know ? who is sleeping with whom, who has financial troubles, who?s in league with the opposition. And the E-lists. ?E? for elimination. Who was killed. Who was to be taken out next. And the Zulu dossier.
P: The Zulu dossier?
G: You know, the Zulu nationalists.
P: I don'?t know, Mr. Groenewald.
G: You must know that in the Zulu ranks there is a conservative nucleus that still dreams of Zulu independence?
