The Riddle of Gender

Q: You haven’t had the sense that you were discriminated against in your own life?”

I was discriminated against when I was perceived to be a gay man. But after that, no. I mean, granted, there have been situations where a love of my life whom I had shared this information with said, “I can’t stay.” But he didn’t hit me upside the head. This was his choice. And that could have been based on any number of things. So, no, I don’t feel discriminated against.

Q: But others do feel discriminated against?”

I understand that. When I first came here, I went to a support group, thinking that I could be a great deal of help. I was pretty much rejected by that group because what I was saying was, “My training is how to walk, how to sit, how to use makeup,” and they were saying, “We are who we are, and society has to learn to accept us this way.” And I don’t think society has to do anything, nor does society owe us anything.

Q: Your view is a not a popular one in today’s trans community. I’m sure that many don’t want to hear it.

They don’t. I’m not out there sharing this. But this is very important to me because I feel that what Dr. Benjamin labeled—I started to say “started,” but we know that’s not true—but he put a focus on something that he happened to call “transsexual,” though it has little or nothing to do with sexuality. But his dream for us was that we should be able to fulfill our dream. That we go into society, that we blend and go on with our lives, and so it is an affront to me when I hear people say, “We want to shock. We want to,” in my estimation, “be as offensive as possible.”

There are not many of me around. They’re dying off. And the others that are preaching the same gospel are not coming forward. They’re comfortable in the life they’ve chosen. And I think I do probably tiptoe around that subject in the book. It disturbed me to see … well, we had no political agenda, and to see people getting mileage out of just being transgendered? This is something that you are. I personally see it as Benjamin saw it… something that happened during that hormonal bath and it’s just something that we have to correct. Just like you have to get rid of your appendix, this is just something else we have to get rid of.

Over the years it seems to me—and I know that this sounds harsh—almost any troubled being thought they could put on a dress and say, “Here’s a comfortable label.” Because in the beginning we were medical problems, and there was a bit of understanding and sympathy, and I think that we attracted a lot of troubled people. That’s not politically correct at all, but I’ve seen it. And I just say, these are not our brothers and sisters. And I have to say that is more true for our sisters. By and large, I don’t think that I’ve ever met an FTM that I don’t just adore.

Q: When did you first encounter the transgender movement?’

I had not heard that term, “transgendered,” until about two years ago. “Transsexual” I knew. I find it all very interesting. Sunday, I went to a group here called Mountain Women, predominantly lesbian-identified. One of the women wanted to hold hands and say, “We’re not men, we’re not women, we’re just beings who are experiencing this day.” And I thought, “Now I don’t know how much alcohol it took her to get there, but isn’t that a lovely philosophy.” If we all felt that way, I think that maybe that’s where we are moving as a species. It would be a great move for women, wouldn’t it, to have that power?

But I’m disturbed that my brothers and sisters still need to label themselves, rather than just saying, “I am changing to the gender of my choice, and that’s all there is to it.” We do not need to unite, we do not need to do anything, or even ride in the Gay Pride Parade. What is this? I don’t feel any more gay than the man in the moon. I just don’t get it. But then I think perhaps I’ve been extremely lucky that I was allowed to be. I wasn’t labeled. I could go on with my life.

Of course, coming from Dr. Benjamin’s point of view and reference, the objective is to get this out of the way and go on to join the mainstream. So it disturbs me—not a major disturbance, but still— that there is a movement that’s saying there’s a third gender here. I think we’re all on a continuum anyway, a mix of male and female. Just stop being so goddamn intellectually smug about this whole thing. At the same time, I don’t want people in the transgender movement being slaughtered.

Q: When you first came out to California you began working at Finoc-chio ‘s, the famous drag club in San Francisco.

Yes, Finocchio’s was definitely a training ground. But as good as Finocchio’s was for me, it was merely a stepping-stone. My life actually began in 1962, with surgery. It was a rebirth, truly. Everything prior to that was in preparation for a better life. I didn’t know what that better life was going to be, or how I was going to get there, but I was very aware of not being comfortable in the life I was living. This was not me. I had that brief time span onstage at Finocchio’s, when people applauded and said, “Ooh” and “Aah,” but that was as close as I had ever gotten to what I wanted. But that was only on the stage, not off.

But going into television on The Red Skelton Show—that was really show business. I had worked prior to the show and had done a movie called The Love God {’with Don Knotts. I got an agent, took acting lessons, then did a thing called The Female Bunch, with Russ Tamblyn, which is today a cult classic, but is so tacky, so terrible. I think I tell the story in the book, that because we didn’t want to sleep with the grips, my girlfriend and I passed ourselves off as lesbians, and because of that… the dialogue was pretty much being invented as we went along, and the dialogue did take on a very lesbian overtone. [Laughs] And it was one of the first. Then I went to work at the Ambassador Hotel, and that led to the Skelton show. Usually you reverse that order, you do stage and then television and film, but I did film first and then television.

Then things really started to flower, with The Red Skelton Show. I started getting quite a bit of work. I did a lot of early television … in fact, recently I was auditioning and a young director looked at my resume and said, “My god, you were there at the very beginning of television!” You start feeling hair sprout from your ears and a cane. [Laughs] But I was there doing all that variety show stuff. I did The Andy Williams show, and Leslie Uggams and Dean Martin. The Partridge Family. A skunk had gotten on the bus, and so Danny goes around to get costumes for the family with a cigarette girl or something in Vegas, and he’s trying to get me out of my costume.

I also did Night Gallery. When Rod Serling interviewed me he said, “If I wanted a showgirl, I’d hire Kim Novak. If you pull any of that showgirl shit on me, I’m going to have you right out of there.”

Q: So you had a reputation as a showgirl?”

I did have that reputation … well, I didn’t dare try anything else! So I was walking around on stilts and in miniskirts and very breathy. Smiling a lot. Not just in film, but in real life also.

Q: You were selling sexiness as a commodity?’

I don’t even know that it was sexy. It was a particular look. Do you remember Little Annie Fannie, the cartoon? Big eyes and the lips and the little perky nose and the long legs. That was the image. It was just another version of drag. The ultimate drag queen was Mario Thomas. With the lashes and the hair. That whole image back then. I was very familiar with that. Once, when I was working at Finocchio’s, I was going to work, and I saw Ann-Margret, standing on the corner in all of her glory. And it was the same act.

Q: Did you have the political consciousness to make the connection back then?

No, but I was shocked to discover that some of the people I considered to be the most beautiful women in the world were going through the same traumas that I was. We had the same goals; we were going about it the same way; we were going to private clubs in Beverly Hills, trying to be noticed, trying to be discovered, trying to find a sugar daddy. It was the same damn thing.

Q: The life of a starlet?”

Exactly. And the “will somebody really love me for who I am?” This was not transsexual, it was being a