Dialogues

whether he is seasick or not? What do you say? Megillus I say that he is not a good captain if, although he have nautical skill, he is liable to seasickness. Athenian And what would you say of the commander of an army? Will he be able to command merely because he has military skill if he be a coward, who, when danger comes, is sick and drunk with fear? Megillus Impossible. Athenian And what if besides being a coward he has no skill? Megillus He is a miserable fellow, not fit to be a commander of men, but only of old women. Athenian And what would you say of someone who blames or praises any sort of meeting which is intended by nature to have a ruler, and is well enough when under his presidency? The critic, however, has never seen the society meeting together at an orderly feast under the control of a president, but always without a ruler or with a bad one:⁠—when observers of this class praise or blame such meetings, are we to suppose that what they say is of any value? Megillus Certainly not, if they have never seen or been present at such a meeting when rightly ordered. Athenian Reflect; may not banqueters and banquets be said to constitute a kind of meeting? Megillus Of course. Athenian And did anyone ever see this sort of convivial meeting rightly ordered? Of course you two will answer that you have never seen them at all, because they are not customary or lawful in your country; but I have come across many of them in many different places, and moreover I have made enquiries about them wherever I went, as I may say, and never did I see or hear of anything of the kind which was carried on altogether rightly; in some few particulars they might be right, but in general they were utterly wrong. Cleinias What do you mean, Stranger, by this remark? Explain. For we, as you say, from our inexperience in such matters, might very likely not know, even if they came in our way, what was right or wrong in such societies. Athenian Likely enough; then let me try to be your instructor: You would acknowledge, would you not, that in all gatherings of mankind, of whatever sort, there ought to be a leader? Cleinias Certainly I should. Athenian And we were saying just now, that when men are at war the leader ought to be a brave man? Cleinias We were. Athenian The brave man is less likely than the coward to be disturbed by fears? Cleinias That again is true. Athenian And if there were a possibility of having a general of an army who was absolutely fearless and imperturbable, should we not by all means appoint him? Cleinias Assuredly. Athenian Now, however, we are speaking not of a general who is to command an army, when foe meets foe in time of war, but of one who is to regulate meetings of another sort, when friend meets friend in time of peace. Cleinias True. Athenian And that sort of meeting, if attended with drunkenness, is apt to be unquiet. Cleinias Certainly; the reverse of quiet. Athenian In the first place, then, the revellers as well as the soldiers will require a ruler? Cleinias To be sure; no men more so. Athenian And we ought, if possible, to provide them with a quiet ruler? Cleinias Of course. Athenian And he should be a man who understands society; for his duty is to preserve the friendly feelings which exist among the company at the time, and to increase them for the future by his use of the occasion. Cleinias Very true. Athenian Must we not appoint a sober man and a wise to be our master of the revels? For if the ruler of drinkers be himself young and drunken, and not overwise, only by some special good fortune will he be saved from doing some great evil. Cleinias It will be by a singular good fortune that he is saved. Athenian Now suppose such associations to be framed in the best way possible in states, and that someone blames the very fact of their existence⁠—he may very likely be right. But if he blames a practice which he only sees very much mismanaged, he shows in the first place that he is not aware of the mismanagement, and also not aware that everything done in this way will turn out to be wrong, because done without the superintendence of a sober ruler. Do you not see that a drunken pilot or a drunken ruler of any sort will ruin ship, chariot, army⁠—anything, in short, of which he has the direction? Cleinias The last remark is very true, Stranger; and I see quite clearly the advantage of an army having a good leader⁠—he will give victory in war to his followers, which is a very great advantage; and so of other things. But I do not see any similar advantage which either individuals or states gain from the good management of a feast; and I want you to tell me what great good will be effected, supposing that this drinking ordinance is duly established. Athenian If you mean to ask what great good accrues to the state from the right training of a single youth, or of a single chorus⁠—when the question is put in that form, we cannot deny that the good is not very great in any particular instance. But if you ask what is the good of education in general, the answer is easy⁠—that education makes good men, and that good men act nobly, and conquer their enemies in battle, because they are good. Education certainly gives victory, although victory sometimes produces forgetfulness of education; for many have grown insolent from victory in war, and this insolence has engendered in them innumerable evils; and many a victory has been and will be suicidal to the victors; but education is never suicidal. Cleinias You seem to imply, my friend, that convivial meetings, when rightly ordered, are an important element of education. Athenian Certainly I do. Cleinias And can you show that what you