Dialogues

the conclusion. Socrates You see, Polus, when you compare the two kinds of refutations, how unlike they are. All men, with the exception of myself, are of your way of thinking; but your single assent and witness are enough for me⁠—I have no need of any other, I take your suffrage, and am regardless of the rest. Enough of this, and now let us proceed to the next question; which is, Whether the greatest of evils to a guilty man is to suffer punishment, as you supposed, or whether to escape punishment is not a greater evil, as I supposed. Consider:⁠—You would say that to suffer punishment is another name for being justly corrected when you do wrong? Polus I should. Socrates And would you not allow that all just things are honourable in so far as they are just? Please to reflect, and tell me your opinion. Polus Yes, Socrates, I think that they are. Socrates Consider again:⁠—Where there is an agent, must there not also be a patient? Polus I should say so. Socrates And will not the patient suffer that which the agent does, and will not the suffering have the quality of the action? I mean, for example, that if a man strikes, there must be something which is stricken? Polus Yes. Socrates And if the striker strikes violently or quickly, that which is struck will be struck violently or quickly? Polus True. Socrates And the suffering to him who is stricken is of the same nature as the act of him who strikes? Polus Yes. Socrates And if a man burns, there is something which is burned? Polus Certainly. Socrates And if he burns in excess or so as to cause pain, the thing burned will be burned in the same way? Polus Truly. Socrates And if he cuts, the same argument holds⁠—there will be something cut? Polus Yes. Socrates And if the cutting be great or deep or such as will cause pain, the cut will be of the same nature? Polus That is evident. Socrates Then you would agree generally to the universal proposition which I was just now asserting: that the affection of the patient answers to the affection of the agent? Polus I agree. Socrates Then, as this is admitted, let me ask whether being punished is suffering or acting? Polus Suffering, Socrates; there can be no doubt of that. Socrates And suffering implies an agent? Polus Certainly, Socrates; and he is the punisher. Socrates And he who punishes rightly, punishes justly? Polus Yes. Socrates And therefore he acts justly? Polus Justly. Socrates Then he who is punished and suffers retribution, suffers justly? Polus That is evident. Socrates And that which is just has been admitted to be honourable? Polus Certainly. Socrates Then the punisher does what is honourable, and the punished suffers what is honourable? Polus True. Socrates And if what is honourable, then what is good, for the honourable is either pleasant or useful? Polus Certainly. Socrates Then he who is punished suffers what is good? Polus That is true. Socrates Then he is benefited? Polus Yes. Socrates Do I understand you to mean what I mean by the term “benefited”? I mean, that if he be justly punished his soul is improved. Polus Surely. Socrates Then he who is punished is delivered from the evil of his soul? Polus Yes. Socrates And is he not then delivered from the greatest evil? Look at the matter in this way:⁠—In respect of a man’s estate, do you see any greater evil than poverty? Polus There is no greater evil. Socrates Again, in a man’s bodily frame, you would say that the evil is weakness and disease and deformity? Polus I should. Socrates And do you not imagine that the soul likewise has some evil of her own? Polus Of course. Socrates And this you would call injustice and ignorance and cowardice, and the like? Polus Certainly. Socrates So then, in mind, body, and estate, which are three, you have pointed out three corresponding evils⁠—injustice, disease, poverty? Polus True. Socrates And which of the evils is the most disgraceful?⁠—Is not the most disgraceful of them injustice, and in general the evil of the soul? Polus By far the most. Socrates And if the most disgraceful, then also the worst? Polus What do you mean, Socrates? Socrates I mean to say, that is most disgraceful has been already admitted to be most painful or hurtful, or both. Polus Certainly. Socrates And now injustice and all evil in the soul has been admitted by us to be most disgraceful? Polus It has been admitted. Socrates And most disgraceful either because most painful and causing excessive pain, or most hurtful, or both? Polus Certainly. Socrates And therefore to be unjust and intemperate, and cowardly and ignorant, is more painful than to be poor and sick? Polus Nay, Socrates; the painfulness does not appear to me to follow from your premises. Socrates Then, if, as you would argue, not more painful, the evil of the soul is of all evils the most disgraceful; and the excess of disgrace must be caused by some preternatural greatness, or extraordinary hurtfulness of the evil. Polus Clearly. Socrates And that which exceeds most in hurtfulness will be the greatest of evils? Polus Yes. Socrates Then injustice and intemperance, and in general the depravity of the soul, are the greatest of evils? Polus That is evident. Socrates Now, what art is there which delivers us from poverty? Does not the art of making money? Polus Yes. Socrates And what art frees us from disease? Does not the art of medicine? Polus Very true. Socrates And what from vice and injustice? If you are not able to answer at once, ask yourself whither we go with the sick, and to whom we take them. Polus To the physicians, Socrates. Socrates And to whom do we go with the unjust and intemperate? Polus To the judges, you mean. SOCRATES Who are to punish them? Polus Yes. Socrates And do not those who rightly punish others, punish them in accordance with a certain rule of justice? Polus Clearly. Socrates Then the art of moneymaking frees a man from poverty; medicine from disease; and justice from intemperance and injustice? Polus That is evident. Socrates Which, then, is the best of these three? Polus Will you enumerate them? Socrates Moneymaking, medicine, and justice. Polus Justice, Socrates, far excels the two others. Socrates And justice, if the best, gives the greatest pleasure or advantage or both? Polus Yes. Socrates But