Dialogues

which order and regularity prevail is good; that in which there is disorder, evil? Callicles Yes. Socrates And the same is true of a ship? Callicles Yes. Socrates And the same may be said of the human body? Callicles Yes. Socrates And what would you say of the soul? Will the good soul be that in which disorder is prevalent, or that in which there is harmony and order? Callicles The latter follows from our previous admissions. Socrates What is the name which is given to the effect of harmony and order in the body? Callicles I suppose that you mean health and strength? Socrates Yes, I do; and what is the name which you would give to the effect of harmony and order in the soul? Try and discover a name for this as well as for the other. Callicles Why not give the name yourself, Socrates? Socrates Well, if you had rather that I should, I will; and you shall say whether you agree with me, and if not, you shall refute and answer me. “Healthy,” as I conceive, is the name which is given to the regular order of the body, whence comes health and every other bodily excellence: is that true or not? Callicles True. Socrates And “lawful” and “law” are the names which are given to the regular order and action of the soul, and these make men lawful and orderly:⁠—and so we have temperance and justice: have we not? Callicles Granted. Socrates And will not the true rhetorician who is honest and understands his art have his eye fixed upon these, in all the words which he addresses to the souls of men, and in all his actions, both in what he gives and in what he takes away? Will not his aim be to implant justice in the souls of his citizens and take away injustice, to implant temperance and take away intemperance, to implant every virtue and take away every vice? Do you not agree? Callicles I agree. Socrates For what use is there, Callicles, in giving to the body of a sick man who is in a bad state of health a quantity of the most delightful food or drink or any other pleasant thing, which may be really as bad for him as if you gave him nothing, or even worse if rightly estimated. Is not that true? Callicles I will not say No to it. Socrates For in my opinion there is no profit in a man’s life if his body is in an evil plight⁠—in that case his life also is evil: am I not right? Callicles Yes. Socrates When a man is in health the physicians will generally allow him to eat when he is hungry and drink when he is thirsty, and to satisfy his desires as he likes, but when he is sick they hardly suffer him to satisfy his desires at all: even you will admit that? Callicles Yes. Socrates And does not the same argument hold of the soul, my good sir? While she is in a bad state and is senseless and intemperate and unjust and unholy, her desires ought to be controlled, and she ought to be prevented from doing anything which does not tend to her own improvement. Callicles Yes. Socrates Such treatment will be better for the soul herself? Callicles To be sure. Socrates And to restrain her from her appetites is to chastise her? Callicles Yes. Socrates Then restraint or chastisement is better for the soul than intemperance or the absence of control, which you were just now preferring? Callicles I do not understand you, Socrates, and I wish that you would ask someone who does. Socrates Here is a gentleman who cannot endure to be improved or to subject himself to that very chastisement of which the argument speaks! Callicles I do not heed a word of what you are saying, and have only answered hitherto out of civility to Gorgias. Socrates What are we to do, then? Shall we break off in the middle? Callicles You shall judge for yourself. Socrates Well, but people say that “a tale should have a head and not break off in the middle,” and I should not like to have the argument going about without a head;128 please then to go on a little longer, and put the head on. Callicles How tyrannical you are, Socrates! I wish that you and your argument would rest, or that you would get someone else to argue with you. Socrates But who else is willing?⁠—I want to finish the argument. Callicles Cannot you finish without my help, either talking straight on, or questioning and answering yourself? Socrates Must I then say with Epicharmus, “Two men spoke before, but now one shall be enough”? I suppose that there is absolutely no help. And if I am to carry on the enquiry by myself, I will first of all remark that not only I but all of us should have an ambition to know what is true and what is false in this matter, for the discovery of the truth is a common good. And now I will proceed to argue according to my own notion. But if any of you think that I arrive at conclusions which are untrue you must interpose and refute me, for I do not speak from any knowledge of what I am saying; I am an enquirer like yourselves, and therefore, if my opponent says anything which is of force, I shall be the first to agree with him. I am speaking on the supposition that the argument ought to be completed; but if you think otherwise let us leave off and go our ways. Gorgias I think, Socrates, that we should not go our ways until you have completed the argument; and this appears to me to be the wish of the rest of the company; I myself should very much like to hear what more you have to say. Socrates I too, Gorgias, should have liked to continue the argument with Callicles, and then I might have given him an “Amphion” in return for his “Zethus”;129 but since you, Callicles, are