But with Armando C. Giacomo the defense counsel-'
'Who's-what was that name?'
'Armando C. Giacomo. Very good criminal lawyer. Half a dozen one way, six the other if he or Colonel Mawson is the best there is in Philadelphia.'
'You never heard of him? 'Charley McFadden asked, genuinely surprised, which earned him a no from Matt and a dirty, keep-out-ofthis look from Coughlin.
'The assistant DA, Stillwell, or maybe Tom Callis, the DA himself, is probably worried that Giacomo will start hollering 'police whitewash' or 'cover-up.' Giacomo couldn't do that if you had been before the Grand Jury and they hadn't returned a true bill. You understand all this?'
'I think so.'
'It gets a little more complicated,' Coughlin said. 'I called your father as soon as I heard about this, and he said Colonel Mawson would be in the Roundhouse for your interview.'
'Good.'
Whatever the hell this Grand Jury business is all about-it never came up when I shot Fletcher-I am very unlikely to get screwed with J. Dunlop Mawson hovering protectively over me.
'Maybe good and maybe not,' Coughlin said. 'If you had done something wrong, then having Mawson there to protect your rights would be fine. So let me ask you again, Matty, you already told me, but let me ask you again: You didn't shoot at Stevens until he had shot at you, right?'
'Right.'
'Did you shoot at him before or after you got hit?'
'After.'
'You're absolutely sure about that?'
'Absolutely.'
'And that's what Mickey O'Hara will say?'
'He was there. He saw what happened.'
'That being the case, you have done absolutely nothing wrong,' Coughlin said.
'I already had that figured out,' Matt said, which earned him a pained look.
'Let me tell you how this works, Matty,' Coughlin said. 'You have civil rights, even if you are a cop-'
Well, that's nice to know.
'-in other words, when you are interviewed by Homicide, you don't have to say anything at all, and you have the right to have an attorney present. Miranda. You understand?'
Matt nodded.
'Some cops, if they're worried, will want a lawyer. The FOP will provide one. If you figure you need one, you could have an FOP lawyer. Or Colonel Mawson-'
What the hell is he leading up to?
'-but on the other hand, you don't have to have a lawyer. Just answer the questions in the interview as honestly as you can.'
'Are you telling me I shouldn't ask for a lawyer?'
'I'm telling you that Armando C. Giacomo, if you have a lawyer, especially if you have Colonel Mawson, is probably going to try to twist that around so it looks as if you were reluctant to tell the Homicide people what really happened, to make it look as if the only reason you didn't get indicted by the Grand Jury is because Mawson was there when you were interviewed.'
'Youare telling me I should tell Colonel Mawson 'thanks, but no thanks'?'
'I'm telling you that you have to make up your mind what's best for you and the Police Department.'
Jesus H. Christ!
STATEMENT OF: P/O Matthew Mark Payne, Badge 7701
DATE AND TIME: 1105 A.M. Jan. 5, 1973 PLACE: Homicide Bureau, Police Admin. Bldg.
CONCERNING: Death by Shooting of Charles David Stevens, aka Abu Ben Mohammed
IN PRESENCE OF: Captain Henry C. Quaire; Detective Kenneth J. Summers, Badge 4505
INTERROGATED BY: Det. Alonzo Kramer, Badge 1967
RECORDED BY: Mrs. Jo-Ellen Garcia-Romez
I am: Detective Kramer of the Homicide Bureau
We are questioning you concerning: your involvement in the fatal shooting of Charles David Stevens, also known as Abu Ben Mohammed. We have a duty to explain to you and to warn you that you have the following legal rights:
A. You have the right to remain silent and do not have to say anything at all.
B. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court.
C. You have a right to talk to a lawyer of your own choice before we ask you any questions, and also to have a lawyer here with you while we ask questions.
D. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and you want one, we will see that you have a lawyer provided to you, free of charge, before we ask you any questions.
E. If you are willing to give us a statement, you have a right to stop anytime you wish.
Q. Do you understand that you have a right to keep quiet and do not have to say anything at all?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you understand that anything you say can and will be used against you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you want to remain silent?
A. I'll tell you anything you want to know.
Q. Do you understand you have a right to talk to a lawyer before we ask you any questions?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you understand that if you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and you want one, we will not ask you any questions until a lawyer is appointed for you free of charge?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you want to talk to a lawyer at this time, or to have a lawyer with you while we ask you questions?
A. I don't want a lawyer, thank you.
Q. Are you willing to answer questions of your own free will, without force or fear, and without any threats and promises having been made to you?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. State your name, city of residence, and employment?
A. Matthew M. Payne, I live in Philadelphia, and I am a police officer.
Q. State your badge number and duty assignment?
A. Badge Number 7701. Special Operations Division.
Q. What is your specific assignment?
A. I am administrative assistant to Inspector Wohl.
Q. That is Staff Inspector Peter Wohl, commanding officer of the Special Operations Division?
A. That's right.
Q. Were you on duty at approximately five A.M. January 4 of this year?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was the nature of your duty at that time and place?
A. Inspector Wohl ordered me to accompany Mr. Mickey O'Hara of the Bulletin during an arrest that was taking place.
Q. That is Mr. Michael J. O'Hara, a police reporter employed by the Philadelphia Bulletin?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you in uniform and armed at this time?
A. I was in civilian clothing. I was armed.
