Dialogues

case, he who takes pleasure in them will surely become like those in whom he takes pleasure, even though he be ashamed to praise them. And what greater good or evil can any destiny ever make us undergo? Cleinias I know of none. Athenian Then in a city which has good laws, or in future ages is to have them, bearing in mind the instruction and amusement which are given by music, can we suppose that the poets are to be allowed to teach in the dance anything which they themselves like, in the way of rhythm, or melody, or words, to the young children of any well-conditioned parents? Is the poet to train his choruses as he pleases, without reference to virtue or vice? Cleinias That is surely quite unreasonable, and is not to be thought of. Athenian And yet he may do this in almost any state with the exception of Egypt. Cleinias And what are the laws about music and dancing in Egypt? Athenian You will wonder when I tell you: Long ago they appear to have recognized the very principle of which we are now speaking⁠—that their young citizens must be habituated to forms and strains of virtue. These they fixed, and exhibited the patterns of them in their temples; and no painter or artist is allowed to innovate upon them, or to leave the traditional forms and invent new ones. To this day, no alteration is allowed either in these arts, or in music at all. And you will find that their works of art are painted or moulded in the same forms which they had ten thousand years ago;⁠—this is literally true and no exaggeration⁠—their ancient paintings and sculptures are not a whit better or worse than the work of today, but are made with just the same skill. Cleinias How extraordinary! Athenian I should rather say, How statesmanlike, how worthy of a legislator! I know that other things in Egypt are not so well. But what I am telling you about music is true and deserving of consideration, because showing that a lawgiver may institute melodies which have a natural truth and correctness without any fear of failure. To do this, however, must be the work of God, or of a divine person; in Egypt they have a tradition that their ancient chants which have been preserved for so many ages are the composition of the Goddess Isis. And therefore, as I was saying, if a person can only find in any way the natural melodies, he may confidently embody them in a fixed and legal form. For the love of novelty which arises out of pleasure in the new and weariness of the old, has not strength enough to corrupt the consecrated song and dance, under the plea that they have become antiquated. At any rate, they are far from being corrupted in Egypt. Cleinias Your arguments seem to prove your point. Athenian May we not confidently say that the true use of music and of choral festivities is as follows: We rejoice when we think that we prosper, and again we think that we prosper when we rejoice? Cleinias Exactly. Athenian And when rejoicing in our good fortune, we are unable to be still? Cleinias True. Athenian Our young men break forth into dancing and singing, and we who are their elders deem that we are fulfilling our part in life when we look on at them. Having lost our agility, we delight in their sports and merrymaking, because we love to think of our former selves; and gladly institute contests for those who are able to awaken in us the memory of our youth. Cleinias Very true. Athenian Is it altogether unmeaning to say, as the common people do about festivals, that he should be adjudged the wisest of men, and the winner of the palm, who gives us the greatest amount of pleasure and mirth? For on such occasions, and when mirth is the order of the day, ought not he to be honoured most, and, as I was saying, bear the palm, who gives most mirth to the greatest number? Now is this a true way of speaking or of acting? Cleinias Possibly. Athenian But, my dear friend, let us distinguish between different cases, and not be hasty in forming a judgment: One way of considering the question will be to imagine a festival at which there are entertainments of all sorts, including gymnastic, musical, and equestrian contests: the citizens are assembled; prizes are offered, and proclamation is made that anyone who likes may enter the lists, and that he is to bear the palm who gives the most pleasure to the spectators⁠—there is to be no regulation about the manner how; but he who is most successful in giving pleasure is to be crowned victor, and deemed to be the pleasantest of the candidates: What is likely to be the result of such a proclamation? Cleinias In what respect? Athenian There would be various exhibitions: one man, like Homer, will exhibit a rhapsody, another a performance on the lute; one will have a tragedy, and another a comedy. Nor would there be anything astonishing in someone imagining that he could gain the prize by exhibiting a puppet-show. Suppose these competitors to meet, and not these only, but innumerable others as well⁠—can you tell me who ought to be the victor? Cleinias I do not see how anyone can answer you, or pretend to know, unless he has heard with his own ears the several competitors; the question is absurd. Athenian Well, then, if neither of you can answer, shall I answer this question which you deem so absurd? Cleinias By all means. Athenian If very small children are to determine the question, they will decide for the puppet show. Cleinias Of course. Athenian The older children will be advocates of comedy; educated women, and young men, and people in general, will favour tragedy. Cleinias Very likely. Athenian And I believe that we old men would have the greatest pleasure in hearing a rhapsodist recite well the Iliad and Odyssey,