Dialogues

advancing in years, he is afraid and reluctant to sing;⁠—he has no pleasure in his own performances; and if compulsion is used, he will be more and more ashamed, the older and more discreet he grows;⁠—is not this true? Cleinias Certainly. Athenian Well, and will he not be yet more ashamed if he has to stand up and sing in the theatre to a mixed audience?⁠—and if moreover when he is required to do so, like the other choirs who contend for prizes, and have been trained under a singing master, he is pinched and hungry, he will certainly have a feeling of shame and discomfort which will make him very unwilling to exhibit. Cleinias No doubt. Athenian How, then, shall we reassure him, and get him to sing? Shall we begin by enacting that boys shall not taste wine at all until they are eighteen years of age; we will tell them that fire must not be poured upon fire, whether in the body or in the soul, until they begin to go to work⁠—this is a precaution which has to be taken against the excitableness of youth;⁠—afterwards they may taste wine in moderation up to the age of thirty, but while a man is young he should abstain altogether from intoxication and from excess of wine; when, at length, he has reached forty years, after dinner at a public mess, he may invite not only the other Gods, but Dionysus above all, to the mystery and festivity of the elder men, making use of the wine which he has given men to lighten the sourness of old age; that in age we may renew our youth, and forget our sorrows; and also in order that the nature of the soul, like iron melted in the fire, may become softer and so more impressible. In the first place, will not anyone who is thus mellowed be more ready and less ashamed to sing⁠—I do not say before a large audience, but before a moderate company; nor yet among strangers, but among his familiars, and, as we have often said, to chant, and to enchant? Cleinias He will be far more ready. Athenian There will be no impropriety in our using such a method of persuading them to join with us in song. Cleinias None at all. Athenian And what strain will they sing, and what muse will they hymn? The strain should clearly be one suitable to them. Cleinias Certainly. Athenian And what strain is suitable for heroes? Shall they sing a choric strain? Cleinias Truly, Stranger, we of Crete and Lacedaemon know no strain other than that which we have learnt and been accustomed to sing in our chorus. Athenian I dare say; for you have never acquired the knowledge of the most beautiful kind of song, in your military way of life, which is modelled after the camp, and is not like that of dwellers in cities; and you have your young men herding and feeding together like young colts. No one takes his own individual colt and drags him away from his fellows against his will, raging and foaming, and gives him a groom to attend to him alone, and trains and rubs him down privately, and gives him the qualities in education which will make him not only a good soldier, but also a governor of a state and of cities. Such an one, as we said at first, would be a greater warrior than he of whom Tyrtaeus sings; and he would honour courage everywhere, but always as the fourth, and not as the first part of virtue, either in individuals or states. Cleinias Once more, Stranger, I must complain that you depreciate our lawgivers. Athenian Not intentionally, if at all, my good friend; but whither the argument leads, thither let us follow; for if there be indeed some strain of song more beautiful than that of the choruses or the public theatres, I should like to impart it to those who, as we say, are ashamed of these, and want to have the best. Cleinias Certainly. Athenian When things have an accompanying charm, either the best thing in them is this very charm, or there is some rightness or utility possessed by them;⁠—for example, I should say that eating and drinking, and the use of food in general, have an accompanying charm which we call pleasure; but that this rightness and utility is just the healthfulness of the things served up to us, which is their true rightness. Cleinias Just so. Athenian Thus, too, I should say that learning has a certain accompanying charm which is the pleasure; but that the right and the profitable, the good and the noble, are qualities which the truth gives to it. Cleinias Exactly. Athenian And so in the imitative arts⁠—if they succeed in making likenesses, and are accompanied by pleasure, may not their works be said to have a charm? Cleinias Yes. Athenian But equal proportions, whether of quality or quantity, and not pleasure, speaking generally, would give them truth or rightness. Cleinias Yes. Athenian Then that only can be rightly judged by the standard of pleasure, which makes or furnishes no utility or truth or likeness, nor on the other hand is productive of any hurtful quality, but exists solely for the sake of the accompanying charm; and the term “pleasure” is most appropriately applied to it when these other qualities are absent. Cleinias You are speaking of harmless pleasure, are you not? Athenian Yes; and this I term amusement, when doing neither harm nor good in any degree worth speaking of. Cleinias Very true. Athenian Then, if such be our principles, we must assert that imitation is not to be judged of by pleasure and false opinion; and this is true of all equality, for the equal is not equal or the symmetrical symmetrical, because somebody thinks or likes something, but they are to be judged of by the standard of truth, and by no other whatever. Cleinias Quite true. Athenian Do we not regard all music as representative and imitative? Cleinias Certainly. Athenian Then, when anyone says that music is to be judged