Dialogues

have ever been made even in the least particular? For it is evident that the arts were unknown during ten thousand times ten thousand years. And no more than a thousand or two thousand years have elapsed since the discoveries of Daedalus, Orpheus and Palamedes⁠—since Marsyas and Olympus invented music, and Amphion the lyre⁠—not to speak of numberless other inventions which are but of yesterday. Athenian Have you forgotten, Cleinias, the name of a friend who is really of yesterday? Cleinias I suppose that you mean Epimenides.370 Athenian The same, my friend; he does indeed far overleap the heads of all mankind by his invention; for he carried out in practice, as you declare, what of old Hesiod371 only preached. Cleinias Yes, according to our tradition. Athenian After the great destruction, may we not suppose that the state of man was something of this sort:⁠—In the beginning of things there was a fearful illimitable desert and a vast expanse of land; a herd or two of oxen would be the only survivors of the animal world; and there might be a few goats, these too hardly enough to maintain the shepherds who tended them? Cleinias True. Athenian And of cities or governments or legislation, about which we are now talking, do you suppose that they could have any recollection at all? Cleinias None whatever. Athenian And out of this state of things has there not sprung all that we now are and have: cities and governments, and arts and laws, and a great deal of vice and a great deal of virtue? Cleinias What do you mean? Athenian Why, my good friend, how can we possibly suppose that those who knew nothing of all the good and evil of cities could have attained their full development, whether of virtue or of vice? Cleinias I understand your meaning, and you are quite right. Athenian But, as time advanced and the race multiplied, the world came to be what the world is. Cleinias Very true. Athenian Doubtless the change was not made all in a moment, but little by little, during a very long period of time. Cleinias A highly probable supposition. Athenian At first, they would have a natural fear ringing in their ears which would prevent their descending from the heights into the plain. Cleinias Of course. Athenian The fewness of the survivors at that time would have made them all the more desirous of seeing one another; but then the means of travelling either by land or sea had been almost entirely lost, as I may say, with the loss of the arts, and there was great difficulty in getting at one another; for iron and brass and all metals were jumbled together and had disappeared in the chaos; nor was there any possibility of extracting ore from them; and they had scarcely any means of felling timber. Even if you suppose that some implements might have been preserved in the mountains, they must quickly have worn out and vanished, and there would be no more of them until the art of metallurgy had again revived. Cleinias There could not have been. Athenian In how many generations would this be attained? Cleinias Clearly, not for many generations. Athenian During this period, and for some time afterwards, all the arts which require iron and brass and the like would disappear. Cleinias Certainly. Athenian Faction and war would also have died out in those days, and for many reasons. Cleinias How would that be? Athenian In the first place, the desolation of these primitive men would create in them a feeling of affection and goodwill towards one another; and, secondly, they would have no occasion to quarrel about their subsistence, for they would have pasture in abundance, except just at first, and in some particular cases; and from their pastureland they would obtain the greater part of their food in a primitive age, having plenty of milk and flesh; moreover they would procure other food by the chase, not to be despised either in quantity or quality. They would also have abundance of clothing, and bedding, and dwellings, and utensils either capable of standing on the fire or not; for the plastic and weaving arts do not require any use of iron: and God has given these two arts to man in order to provide him with all such things, that, when reduced to the last extremity, the human race may still grow and increase. Hence in those days mankind were not very poor; nor was poverty a cause of difference among them; and rich they could not have been, having neither gold nor silver:⁠—such at that time was their condition. And the community which has neither poverty nor riches will always have the noblest principles; in it there is no insolence or injustice, nor, again, are there any contentions or envyings. And therefore they were good, and also because they were what is called simple-minded; and when they were told about good and evil, they in their simplicity believed what they heard to be very truth and practised it. No one had the wit to suspect another of a falsehood, as men do now; but what they heard about Gods and men they believed to be true, and lived accordingly; and therefore they were in all respects such as we have described them. Cleinias That quite accords with my views, and with those of my friend here. Athenian Would not many generations living on in a simple manner, although ruder, perhaps, and more ignorant of the arts generally, and in particular of those of land or naval warfare, and likewise of other arts, termed in cities legal practices and party conflicts, and including all conceivable ways of hurting one another in word and deed;⁠—although inferior to those who lived before the deluge, or to the men of our day in these respects, would they not, I say, be simpler and more manly, and also more temperate and altogether more just? The reason has been already explained. Cleinias Very true. Athenian I should wish you to understand that what has preceded and what is about