Dialogues

far wrong about me. Socrates And certainly not about myself. Alcibiades But what can we do? Socrates There must be no hesitation or cowardice, my friend. Alcibiades That would not become us, Socrates. Socrates No, indeed, and we ought to take counsel together: for do we not wish to be as good as possible? Alcibiades We do. Socrates In what sort of virtue? Alcibiades Plainly, in the virtue of good men. Socrates Who are good in what? Alcibiades Those, clearly, who are good in the management of affairs. Socrates What sort of affairs? Equestrian affairs? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates You mean that about them we should have recourse to horsemen? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Well, naval affairs? Alcibiades No. Socrates You mean that we should have recourse to sailors about them? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then what affairs? And who do them? Alcibiades The affairs which occupy Athenian gentlemen. Socrates And when you speak of gentlemen, do you mean the wise or the unwise? Alcibiades The wise. Socrates And a man is good in respect of that in which he is wise? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And evil in respect of that in which he is unwise? Alcibiades Certainly. Socrates The shoemaker, for example, is wise in respect of the making of shoes? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then he is good in that? Alcibiades He is. Socrates But in respect of the making of garments he is unwise? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then in that he is bad? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then upon this view of the matter the same man is good and also bad? Alcibiades True. Socrates But would you say that the good are the same as the bad? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates Then whom do you call the good? Alcibiades I mean by the good those who are able to rule in the city. Socrates Not, surely, over horses? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates But over men? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates When they are sick? Alcibiades No. Socrates Or on a voyage? Alcibiades No. Socrates Or reaping the harvest? Alcibiades No. Socrates When they are doing something or nothing? Alcibiades When they are doing something, I should say. Socrates I wish that you would explain to me what this something is. Alcibiades When they are having dealings with one another, and using one another’s services, as we citizens do in our daily life. Socrates Those of whom you speak are ruling over men who are using the services of other men? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Are they ruling over the signalmen who give the time to the rowers? Alcibiades No; they are not. Socrates That would be the office of the pilot? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates But, perhaps you mean that they rule over flute-players, who lead the singers and use the services of the dancers? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates That would be the business of the teacher of the chorus? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then what is the meaning of being able to rule over men who use other men? Alcibiades I mean that they rule over men who have common rights of citizenship, and dealings with one another. Socrates And what sort of an art is this? Suppose that I ask you again, as I did just now, What art makes men know how to rule over their fellow-sailors⁠—how would you answer? Alcibiades The art of the pilot. Socrates And, if I may recur to another old instance, what art enables them to rule over their fellow-singers? Alcibiades The art of the teacher of the chorus, which you were just now mentioning. Socrates And what do you call the art of fellow-citizens? Alcibiades I should say, good counsel, Socrates. Socrates And is the art of the pilot evil counsel? Alcibiades No. Socrates But good counsel? Alcibiades Yes, that is what I should say⁠—good counsel, of which the aim is the preservation of the voyagers. Socrates True. And what is the aim of that other good counsel of which you speak? Alcibiades The aim is the better order and preservation of the city. Socrates And what is that of which the absence or presence improves and preserves the order of the city? Suppose you were to ask me, what is that of which the presence or absence improves or preserves the order of the body? I should reply, the presence of health and the absence of disease. You would say the same? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And if you were to ask me the same question about the eyes, I should reply in the same way, “the presence of sight and the absence of blindness”; or about the ears, I should reply, that they were improved and were in better case, when deafness was absent, and hearing was present in them. Alcibiades True. Socrates And what would you say of a state? What is that by the presence or absence of which the state is improved and better managed and ordered? Alcibiades I should say, Socrates:⁠—the presence of friendship and the absence of hatred and division. Socrates And do you mean by friendship agreement or disagreement? Alcibiades Agreement. Socrates What art makes cities agree about numbers? Alcibiades Arithmetic. Socrates And private individuals? Alcibiades The same. Socrates And what art makes each individual agree with himself? Alcibiades The same. Socrates And what art makes each of us agree with himself about the comparative length of the span and of the cubit? Does not the art of measure? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Individuals are agreed with one another about this; and states, equally? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And the same holds of the balance? Alcibiades True. Socrates But what is the other agreement of which you speak, and about what? what art can give that agreement? And does that which gives it to the state give it also to the individual, so as to make him consistent with himself and with another? Alcibiades I should suppose so. Socrates But what is the nature of the agreement?⁠—answer, and faint not. Alcibiades I mean to say that there should be such friendship and agreement as exists between an affectionate father and mother and their son, or between brothers, or between husband and wife. Socrates But can a man, Alcibiades, agree with a woman about the spinning of wool, which she understands and he does not? Alcibiades No, truly. Socrates Nor has he any need, for spinning is a female accomplishment. Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And would a woman agree with a man about the science of arms, which she has never learned? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates I suppose that the use of arms would be regarded by you as a male accomplishment? Alcibiades It would. Socrates Then, upon your view, women and men have