Dialogues

ask you a question before you answer? Philebus Let me hear. Socrates Have pleasure and pain a limit, or do they belong to the class which admits of more and less? Philebus They belong to the class which admits of more, Socrates; for pleasure would not be perfectly good if she were not infinite in quantity and degree. Socrates Nor would pain, Philebus, be perfectly evil. And therefore the infinite cannot be that element which imparts to pleasure some degree of good. But now⁠—admitting, if you like, that pleasure is of the nature of the infinite⁠—in which of the aforesaid classes, O Protarchus and Philebus, can we without irreverence place wisdom and knowledge and mind? And let us be careful, for I think that the danger will be very serious if we err on this point. Philebus You magnify, Socrates, the importance of your favourite god. Socrates And you, my friend, are also magnifying your favourite goddess; but still I must beg you to answer the question. Protarchus Socrates is quite right, Philebus, and we must submit to him. Philebus And did not you, Protarchus, propose to answer in my place? Protarchus Certainly I did; but I am now in a great strait, and I must entreat you, Socrates, to be our spokesman, and then we shall not say anything wrong or disrespectful of your favourite. Socrates I must obey you, Protarchus; nor is the task which you impose a difficult one; but did I really, as Philebus implies, disconcert you with my playful solemnity, when I asked the question to what class mind and knowledge belong? Protarchus You did, indeed, Socrates. Socrates Yet the answer is easy, since all philosophers assert with one voice that mind is the king of heaven and earth⁠—in reality they are magnifying themselves. And perhaps they are right. But still I should like to consider the class of mind, if you do not object, a little more fully. Philebus Take your own course, Socrates, and never mind length; we shall not tire of you. Socrates Very good; let us begin then, Protarchus, by asking a question. Protarchus What question? Socrates Whether all this which they call the universe is left to the guidance of unreason and chance medley, or, on the contrary, as our fathers have declared, ordered and governed by a marvellous intelligence and wisdom. Protarchus Wide asunder are the two assertions, illustrious Socrates, for that which you were just now saying to me appears to be blasphemy; but the other assertion, that mind orders all things, is worthy of the aspect of the world, and of the sun, and of the moon, and of the stars and of the whole circle of the heavens; and never will I say or think otherwise. Socrates Shall we then agree with them of old time in maintaining354 this doctrine⁠—not merely reasserting the notions of others, without risk to ourselves⁠—but shall we share in the danger, and take our part of the reproach which will await us, when an ingenious individual declares that all is disorder? Protarchus That would certainly be my wish. Socrates Then now please to consider the next stage of the argument. Protarchus Let me hear. Socrates We see that the elements which enter into the nature of the bodies of all animals, fire, water, air, and, as the storm-tossed sailor cries, “land” (i.e., earth), reappear in the constitution of the world. Protarchus The proverb may be applied to us; for truly the storm gathers over us, and we are at our wit’s end. Socrates There is something to be remarked about each of these elements. Protarchus What is it? Socrates Only a small fraction of any one of them exists in us, and that of a mean sort, and not in any way pure, or having any power worthy of its nature. One instance will prove this of all of them; there is fire within us, and in the universe. Protarchus True. Socrates And is not our fire small and weak and mean? But the fire in the universe is wonderful in quantity and beauty, and in every power that fire has. Protarchus Most true. Socrates And is the fire in the universe nourished and generated and ruled by the fire in us, or is the fire in you and me, and in other animals, dependent on the universal fire? Protarchus That is a question which does not deserve an answer. Socrates Right; and you would say the same, if I am not mistaken, of the earth which is in animals and the earth which is in the universe, and you would give a similar reply about all the other elements? Protarchus Why, how could any man who gave any other be deemed in his senses? Socrates I do not think that he could⁠—but now go on to the next step. When we saw those elements of which we have been speaking gathered up in one, did we not call them a body? Protarchus We did. Socrates And the same may be said of the cosmos, which for the same reason may be considered to be a body, because made up of the same elements. Protarchus Very true. Socrates But is our body nourished wholly by this body, or is this body nourished by our body, thence deriving and having the qualities of which we were just now speaking? Protarchus That again, Socrates, is a question which does not deserve to be asked. Socrates Well, tell me, is this question worth asking? Protarchus What question? Socrates May our body be said to have a soul? Protarchus Clearly. Socrates And whence comes that soul, my dear Protarchus, unless the body of the universe, which contains elements like those in our bodies but in every way fairer, had also a soul? Can there be another source? Protarchus Clearly, Socrates, that is the only source. Socrates Why, yes, Protarchus; for surely we cannot imagine that of the four classes, the finite, the infinite, the composition of the two, and the cause, the fourth, which enters into all things, giving to our bodies souls, and the art of self-management, and of healing disease, and operating in other ways to heal and organize,