Dialogues

you, tell me with whom you are conversing?⁠—with whom but with me? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates As I am, with you? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates That is to say, I, Socrates, am talking? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And Alcibiades is my hearer? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And I in talking use words? Alcibiades Certainly. Socrates And talking and using words have, I suppose, the same meaning? Alcibiades To be sure. Socrates And the user is not the same as the thing which he uses? Alcibiades What do you mean? Socrates I will explain; the shoemaker, for example, uses a square tool, and a circular tool, and other tools for cutting? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates But the tool is not the same as the cutter and user of the tool? Alcibiades Of course not. Socrates And in the same way the instrument of the harper is to be distinguished from the harper himself? Alcibiades It is. Socrates Now the question which I asked was whether you conceive the user to be always different from that which he uses? Alcibiades I do. Socrates Then what shall we say of the shoemaker? Does he cut with his tools only or with his hands? Alcibiades With his hands as well. Socrates He uses his hands too? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And does he use his eyes in cutting leather? Alcibiades He does. Socrates And we admit that the user is not the same with the things which he uses? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then the shoemaker and the harper are to be distinguished from the hands and feet which they use? Alcibiades Clearly. Socrates And does not a man use the whole body? Alcibiades Certainly. Socrates And that which uses is different from that which is used? Alcibiades True. Socrates Then a man is not the same as his own body? Alcibiades That is the inference. Socrates What is he, then? Alcibiades I cannot say. Socrates Nay, you can say that he is the user of the body. Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And the user of the body is the soul? Alcibiades Yes, the soul. Socrates And the soul rules? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Let me make an assertion which will, I think, be universally admitted. Alcibiades What is it? Socrates That man is one of three things. Alcibiades What are they? Socrates Soul, body, or both together forming a whole. Alcibiades Certainly. Socrates But did we not say that the actual ruling principle of the body is man? Alcibiades Yes, we did. Socrates And does the body rule over itself? Alcibiades Certainly not. Socrates It is subject, as we were saying? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates Then that is not the principle which we are seeking? Alcibiades It would seem not. Socrates But may we say that the union of the two rules over the body, and consequently that this is man? Alcibiades Very likely. Socrates The most unlikely of all things; for if one of the members is subject, the two united cannot possibly rule. Alcibiades True. Socrates But since neither the body, nor the union of the two, is man, either man has no real existence, or the soul is man? Alcibiades Just so. Socrates Is anything more required to prove that the soul is man? Alcibiades Certainly not; the proof is, I think, quite sufficient. Socrates And if the proof, although not perfect, be sufficient, we shall be satisfied;⁠—more precise proof will be supplied when we have discovered that which we were led to omit, from a fear that the enquiry would be too much protracted. Alcibiades What was that? Socrates What I meant, when I said that absolute existence must be first considered; but now, instead of absolute existence, we have been considering the nature of individual existence, and this may, perhaps, be sufficient; for surely there is nothing which may be called more properly ourselves than the soul? Alcibiades There is nothing. Socrates Then we may truly conceive that you and I are conversing with one another, soul to soul? Alcibiades Very true. Socrates And that is just what I was saying before⁠—that I, Socrates, am not arguing or talking with the face of Alcibiades, but with the real Alcibiades; or in other words, with his soul. Alcibiades True. Socrates Then he who bids a man know himself, would have him know his soul? Alcibiades That appears to be true. Socrates He whose knowledge only extends to the body, knows the things of a man, and not the man himself? Alcibiades That is true. Socrates Then neither the physician regarded as a physician, nor the trainer regarded as a trainer, knows himself? Alcibiades He does not. Socrates The husbandmen and the other craftsmen are very far from knowing themselves, for they would seem not even to know their own belongings? When regarded in relation to the arts which they practise they are even further removed from self-knowledge, for they only know the belongings of the body, which minister to the body. Alcibiades That is true. Socrates Then if temperance is the knowledge of self, in respect of his art none of them is temperate? Alcibiades I agree. Socrates And this is the reason why their arts are accounted vulgar, and are not such as a good man would practise? Alcibiades Quite true. Socrates Again, he who cherishes his body cherishes not himself, but what belongs to him? Alcibiades That is true. Socrates But he who cherishes his money, cherishes neither himself nor his belongings, but is in a stage yet further removed from himself? Alcibiades I agree. Socrates Then the moneymaker has really ceased to be occupied with his own concerns? Alcibiades True. Socrates And if anyone has fallen in love with the person of Alcibiades, he loves not Alcibiades, but the belongings of Alcibiades? Alcibiades True. Socrates But he who loves your soul is the true lover? Alcibiades That is the necessary inference. Socrates The lover of the body goes away when the flower of youth fades? Alcibiades True. Socrates But he who loves the soul goes not away, as long as the soul follows after virtue? Alcibiades Yes. Socrates And I am the lover who goes not away, but remains with you, when you are no longer young and the rest are gone? Alcibiades Yes, Socrates; and therein you do well, and I hope that you will remain. Socrates Then you must try to look your best. Alcibiades I will. Socrates The fact is, that there is only one lover of Alcibiades the son of Cleinias; there neither is nor ever has been seemingly any other; and he is his darling⁠—Socrates, the son of Sophroniscus and Phaenarete. Alcibiades True. Socrates And did you not say,